Shoulder to Shoulder

We've been talking and want to propose something.

We've been expending a lot of energy and time arguing with each other about religion. Yet we both know that we'll never arrive at a conclusion:

• There are no proofs for or against the existence of God (we can't even agree on the rules that would constitute a proof)
• Each believes the other is a good person
• Community is important

We think it might be time to move forward and find a way that we can take this energy and time we spend fighting each other and use it to better the world.

We're looking for your ideas.

Jeff:

As we continue to debate I keep having this image of Brad and I standing shoulder-to-shoulder drenched by a mounting hurricane sand-bagging a house to protect it from the storm. There is no talk of religion; the storm approaches, so who cares! I don't know why I have this image in my head but there it is. Wouldn't it be better for all of us if we just stood together despite our disagreements and did something for the world.

Brad:

I have been thinking this same thing. We don't have to stop the discussion, but we do have an opportunity here that is profound. Everyone contributing to this blog loves humans. What an amazing opportunity and adventure it would be to take the time, energy, brain-power and resources we have and use it to help others. My friend Jeff is hooked up in a very profound way to what I will simply call a network of creativity. I envision a growing network of something...I just don't know what. I have said elsewhere on the blog and I know Jeff agrees with me that there is no such thing as an insignificant gesture of love.

So folks, our question is this: were we to spend the time we spent today on the blog attacking each other's arguments on something more constructive what would it be?

Ideas:

1. Set up a micro-grant fund for education. We'll open the fund with $1,000 and then work 50% towards distributing this money to teachers who need it and 50% to increasing the fund amount. We can call it the Second Oldest Question Fund and will report about its progress here on this blog.
2. Both of us share a love of the arts and know the impact it has on children with special needs. Perhaps we target resourcing an under-funded performing arts program focused on the just such children.
3. Perhaps there is a way to create not just a social network like Facebook, but a services network where people find a forum for connecting their passions for serving others.
4. ...
5. ...
6. ...

What ideas do you have?

Comments

[Humble Pie]

Special needs Kids??

Here's a good book to start with:

http://www.amazon.com/Sometimes-Smart-Good-Dena-Luchsinger/dp/0802852157/ref=sr_1_1/102-6147796-4826506?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192832826&sr=1-1

(OK - so the author is my sister in law - it's STILL a good book!)

[Linda]

How about we start something analogous to the Special Olympics - but with an arts rather than a sports focus.

[Linda]

The Wise and Foolish Builders

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." [Matthew 7:24-27, NIV]

[Linda]

Guys,
Look what I found. Its an arts program for people with disabilities. It looks like it has a theatre focus and its connected with the Kennedy Center.

http://www.vsarts.org/

[passionate]

Not to be argumentative here, but Jeff and atheists everywhere certainly won this round with this crowd.

Whether or not it was intended to be, in my opinion this point of agreement is of an extremely sinister nature.

What you're proposing is essentially the ecumenical movement that has been prophesied for thousands of years. It is designed to band every faith & non-faith together for a Christ-less world under an anti-Christ leadership. Enter the latter-day Babylon of the book of Revelations.

I know, let's also be first in line for our implant to make purchases without cash or card. We'll show those ridicules doom-sayers that we don't believe in division for the sake of good deeds!

Do I sound pessimistic? We'll have to wait and see!

BTW - I do what I'm able to by way of representing my God and helping others, without contributing to this newly formed organization. There are already over a billion (literally, I'm sure) great ones that I'm not able to support currently. Thanks anyhow.

[Kate]

Passionate:

Thank you for the courage to say what I couldn't. Sadly, you're 100% right. Prophecy is coming true right before our very eyes.

For Heaven's sake though, we really can't take Revelation and all the prophesy literally, can we?!

Folks, if you have no idea what Passionate refers to, I suggest you pick up a King James Bible and check it out for yourself.

I'll be praying for everyone... oh, and count me out too.

[Linda]

Passionate and Kate,
I have no idea what you're talking about. What does Brad and Jeff's idea have to do with Babylon? Are you saying the Jeff has succeeded in watering down Brad's convictions? I don't think that's true. What's the problem with an atheist and a Christian doing something good together?

[Brian]

Brad and Jeff well done on ushering in the age of the beast. I did not see that one coming but count me in. Let me know what I can do to help, possible suggestion is what if we helped out with a residential housing facility or a foster home that specialize in special needs we could do it in both of your home towns.

[Humble Pie]

Passion man - do you REALLY think that Jeff (some guy from Portland) and Brad (a Pastor from Cottage Grove) are part of the fulfillment of an end of times prophesy because they want to help special needs kids?

I personally take that as a direct insult. Your words imply that I am embracing a Christless world (Thus surrendering my Faith) and that Pastor Brad is the AntiChrist (As my pastor - I consider him MY leader.)

You don't have to be a part of any new humanitarian organisation - and you are ABSOLUTELY entititled to your own belief system. But if you are accusing me and pastor Brad and Linda et al of being part of an evil movement because we want to help some kids...

[Brad Kindall]

Excuse me, Jeff, while I have a moment alone with my brother and sister. I hate to do this when we have company over, but perhaps you will find it interesting as well.

Kate, Passionate, I heard this story. Tell me what you think of it.

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan (or a man named Jeff-the Atheist), as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' 36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Kate, Passionate, do you know why Jesus used a Samaritan as his example in this passage? Because the Jews despised the Samaritans! The enemy was helping a Jew! But Jesus chose to use the enemy of the Jews to show them that the act itself was of God. Jeff, may not realize it yet, but when he is helping another, he is ministering to Jesus. (Re-read the sheep and the goats parable in Matthew 25 if you doubt me.) Now, let's say a Jew and a Samaritan co-operated to help the man beaten by the side of the road. Would not the both of them had shown mercy? Would they both not be fulfilling God's will?

Now, I know where you're heading, Kate. 2 Corinthians 6 says, "14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." 17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."

Here's what conservative scholar and pastor Warren Wiersbe says of these verses in THE BIBLE EXPOSITION COMMENTARY: "It is unfortunate that the important doctrine of separation has been misunderstood and abused in recent years, for it is an essential truth. Some sincerely zealous Christians have turned separation into isolation, until their fellowship has become so narrow that they cannot even get along with themselves. In reaction to this extreme position, other believers have torn down all the walls and will fellowship with anybody, regardless of what he believes or how he lives. While we applaud their desire to practice Christian love, we want to remind them that even Christian love must exercise discernment (Phil. 1:9–11).
Paul presented three arguments to try to convince these believers that they must separate themselves from that which is contrary to God’s will."

Do you really think Jeff and I helping some kids with disabilities to be contrary to God's will?

Also, answer these questions for me:
1) Should a Christian join the military?
2) Should a Christian nurse work with an atheist doctor in a secular hospital?
3) Do you both work only for the church, or do you receive a paycheck from a secular institution?
4) Do you hear the knocking sound in the background? IT'S MY HEAD POUNDING AGAINST A TREE!

Also, Kate, the KJV card! Really!? You're going to play that one?! You sure?

[passionate]

Hi All -

For banding together to do a good work, I have no argument with folks of all walks. For once again reducing Christ's plan of redemption to little more than a charity drive, I have a big problem.

I'm grieved it's been conceded that standing for Christ and His Gospel is "wasted energy", when I believe it to be the most important form of benevolence on the face of the Earth. The simplicity of hearing the Gospel is what has changed my life & saved me from destruction. This message is completely separate from helping the needy through charity.

BECAUSE I DO CARE that the message to Jeff & company is clear, I'll state it again:

THE GOSPEL = TRANSFORMED LIVES THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE.

Jesus saves people out of the world. He never attempted to make the world a better a place. If he did, he would have been crowned king, not crucified.

For those of you who still don't get it, I'll lay out our obligation of good works again:

Once transformed, we have the power to glorify the God of salvation through blessing others in His name. This was initially demonstrated by the 1st century church through signs & wonders.

Probably because we've been content to follow the world, the modern church has become little more than another social/charity organization, often to the exclusion of the Gospel message. SORRY, BUT THIS OFFENDS ME.

If Jeff comes away from this ongoing debate confused about his obligation to Christ, it won't be because of me!

Peace!

[Kate]

Brad:

Why are you always quoting MEN???? I don't care what MEN say, I care what GOD says. And if you think that God inspired the Bible with the intention that we wouldn't be able to understand it, you need to go back to Sunday School my friend.

As Passionate stated, the issue is not working together to do a good work. To my way of thinking, you're conceding to Jeff that the gospel shouldn't be preached while the work is being done. I'll throw this question out to Jeff--Are you going to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Brad pitching bags of sand and remain quiet while he proclaims the gospel to the other sand-baggers? Unlikely. Or Brad, are you going to remain quiet and not share the gospel so as not to offend Jeff? What good does it do to feed people or put sand bags in front of their house to save them if they're going to die without Jesus? Even if you prolong their death, they're still going to hell if they don't have Christ.

Tell me, then--when are we supposed to apply 2 Corinthians 6? How much more clear does it need to be? Think of it like this: I remember hearing a while back about some Christian website being slammed because it appeared they were supporting pornography. Turns out, they were using Amazon.com as a way to sell their books and some questionable material was coming up when people were trying to purchase books from the site. My point? If they weren't using a secular site to sell their books, they wouldn't have to worry about whether or not things of a questionable nature are going to come up. THAT is just one example of what being yoked with nonbelievers can produce. It compromises our testimony.

Of course you're quoting Warren Weirsbe, because it allows you to do what you want to (without guilt).

You are very mistaken when you said "Jeff may not realize it yet, but when he is helping another, he is ministering to Jesus." WRONG. Jesus, when Jeff stands before him, is going to say "I never knew you, ye worker of iniquity." And Jeff will say, "But look at all I did to help people!" No matter. He rejected Christ.

Here's another one... Why would you give money to (I'm assuming you meant) a secular school, when they have thrown Christ out of the system, support abortion and GLBT, and are generally hostile towards Christianity?

I'm really sorry you think the KJV should be referred to as a "card." It is the English version of the Scriptures that served humanity for hundreds of years until all the new copywrited versions came on the scene in the last 100 years and began rewriting the scriptures that refer to the diety of Christ, his blood atonement and hell.

New versions of the Bible present salvation as a process instead of instantaneous. 1 Corinthians 1:18: .... us which are saved. The NKJV, NIV, NLT, RSV, NCV, CEV and NASB all say: ...us who are being saved. The Message says: ...those on the way of salvation. This is just ONE example of how the new versions corrupt God's word. Does CR teach that salvation is a process or if you repent and trust Jesus that it is instantaneous?

If you do a comparison, there are whole verses that are missing in the new versions. I'm not sure exactly where, but it says in the Bible that God inspired his word, he would preserve his word and his word would be attacked. Well, it's being attacked all right.

Here's another one: The scripture that says "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." The new versions only say, "Man does not live by bread alone." Gee, I could substitute any old thing I want in there. "...but by the color purple." Wake up people!

A KJV Bible may have a copywrite in it, but it is related to the maps and other things like concordance, etc. The word of God is FREE. If you want to use more than 200 words of any other version, you've got to pay the publisher.

Perhaps we should get together to discuss over coffee...

[Brad Kindall]

Coffee, yes! Kate, I've offered before but you've refused. I'd love to! When? You have my email.

Also, neither of you really dealt with the parable, nor did you answer my three questions.

Passionate, we never said we were giving up the discussion about Jesus, we just thought it'd be nice to help some people. I am flabbergasted that you have a problem with that! Now, I'm aiding and abetting Satan?! Come on!!!! Give me a break.

BTW, Passionate, you attend a church that gave nearly 6 figures to the Washington County School District for reading materials. Do you have a problem with that as well?

I refuse to say anything more on this particular issue online. This is embarrassing. If you two want to have coffee and talk about this, let's do so.

[passionate]

Brad - I'm sorry you're embarrased. Not my intention.

No, I don't have a problem with giving anything to anyone. I love the concept & the deed. I also love CR. That's why I'm fighting for it to remain spiritually relevant.

I've been greatly misunderstood, I guess rightly so. Please allow me once again to clarify:

Regarding my first comment:

As I understand it, the initial platform for the anti-christ's rise to power will be peace, unity & good-will to all. To accomplish this, he will ask the world to put away our dogmatic differences, e.g. Jesus is the only way…etc, and work together for the welfare of all.

This is exactly what has been proposed in our little forum. It is no surprise to me, as I insinuated that it's where Jeff has been coming from all along. Nothing personal against him, it's inevitable for someone who thinks the way he does about religion. Jeff's just one step ahead of the plan.

The book of Revelation tells us that the church will go along with this ploy & the anti-christ will 'ride' the momentum of it until it no longer serves his agenda.

That's all I meant to say, no personal jabs at anyone.

Regarding my second comment:

The same folks here who only about a year ago chided with our conservative moral constituency over confusing the kingdom of God with the kingdom of this world, are guilty of doing the same thing by confusing the idolatry of performing good deeds as the ticket to the kingdom of God.

Just as the unsaved & saved moralists of the world can unite together under the cause of conservatism and miss Jesus in it all, so can the unsaved & saved philanthropists of the world.

Neither are negative issues in-&-of themselves and they're both biblical, but they can become the 'alpha & omega' of our message if we're not careful.

This is exactly what Jesus was getting at when addressing the rich man whom you referenced.

The man approached Jesus by asking him; "what good thing must I do…". Jesus replied; "why call me good? There is none good…".

Wasn't Jesus essentially teaching the lesson that we can't be good enough or do anything good enough to inherit Heaven? Isn't that why he gave the man a task He knew he couldn't fulfill?

Then Jesus went-on to say that "what's impossible for man is possible with God". Could Jesus have been referring to the process of regeneration/new-birth?

With the same resolve that y'all came at the moralists to set them straight, I'm coming at you. You can't blame me for that, can you?

PS - I wouldn't worry about Jeff during this exchange, I'm guessing he's getting some of the clearest gospel message he's ever received!

[Linda]

Kate and Passionate,

If its wrong for Christians to associate with non-Christians then why did Jesus eat with tax collectors and prostitutes? Also, didn't Jesus heal everybody before He preached and then feed them when He was done preaching? Why did He care about the physical needs of people if only salvation mattered?

Personally, I think Jesus' healing of the sick and disabled gave Him credibility with the people - so that they would listen to His words. That's why I think its important for Christians to do good works - its pretty much the only way that Christians gain credibility with non-Christians. Why would a non-Christian want to listen to a Christian that wasn't credible?

[passionate]

Linda -

Do you hear the knocking sound in the background? IT'S MY HEAD POUNDING AGAINST A TREE!

It's really foolish to come away from my comments thinking that I'm against people or associating with anyone.

could you please re-read my latest? thanks!

[passionate]

PS All-

just today, i donated to 2 charities & gave a panhandler more than he asked for.

aren't i something else? (i just lost my reward in heaven).

by all means, get on with your good deeds. only please don't associate it with your worth as an individual or your closeness to God.

[Account Deleted]

Brad,

I'm puzzled by your refusal to continue this dialog here on the blog. It seems to me that we are at last getting to the heart of some real issues that plague your religious views. What is being aired here is vital to our debate. I think it's important to the debate that you take this all the way through to the end. It's very important to me that you do so. I'm quite eager and interested to hear what both you and Humble have to say on this topic.

[Humble Pie]

Jeff - Luther Ingram sums up my view best:

"If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right."

Read Matthew Chapter 25 (KJV if you'd like)
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

OK Kate and Passion - since I'm CLEARLY not getting the message of this seemingly simple and straightforward text here - SPIN IT for me!!!

Passion - I know you're a Dad, and I'd bet my house that you have a profound love for your children. I'm guessing that no matter WHAT your kids do - you still love them.

But let me ask you - when they do GOOD - do you chastise them?
Do you say "I TOLD you NOT to help people"
"But Dad - I thought you'ld be HAPPY that we helped out...."
"You can't EARN my love!!"
"But Dad - we're not TRYING to earn your love!"
"Your actions are like filthy rags to me!"

Let me be clear - so we DON'T have to have this discussion. I DO NOT DO GOOD TO EARN SALVATION!!!! SO DROP IT!!!! IT IS SERIOUSLY DRIVING ME INSANE!!!

But JESUS (Remember him? We claim he's GOD. So I think we should listen to him) tells us very strongly to love others and care for them. There isn't a theological argument you could possibly make to convince me not to do this.

Passion - I respect your Salvation story. I REALLY do. But do you think that it's the ONLY story? Do you think there isn't a single person who has come to Christ because of the love and actions of Christians? Do you think there isn't a single person (like Jeff) who's come to Christ through common causes - like helping developmentally disabled kids - side by side with Christians?

Finally - you and Kate are both responding that stopping this debate to do something else is essentially giving up (and entering in the end of the world.)

But Kate wanted the blog shut down. And Passion stated he was done "Casting Pearls to Swine."
So your REAL argument appears to be that it's OK to end dialogue with Jeff - but is Sinful to work with him to help others.

[Linda]

Folks,
Rereading all of your posts really reiterates for me why I don't call myself a Christian - especially in public. You Christians are nuts!

Passionate,
I reread your posts again. I still don't understand what you're saying. It seems that you're saying that doing good doesn't count for "jack" in the salvation equation. To me, doing good is EVIDENCE that a person has been transformed by the Holy Spirit - but not the reason for salvation itself. So to me, it doesn't make sense that you de-emphasize good works. How could you be against manifesting that the Holy Spirit is living inside of you?

[passionate]

Wow -

I'm not sure how after reading me thoroughly, anyone could arrive at the conclusion that I'm against love & doing good - AGAIN.

Also, once again my comments are being lumped together with others here, just because a couple of us don't always agree with the general consensus of opinions (I'm particularly disappointed in Brad, since we've discussed this in person & I thought he understood). I show the respect of separating the comments of Brad from Humble, Humble from Linda….

Don't know what else to say here, other than it was only my view on a debate. please don't let me quench any good thing y'all were attempting to do. I also would like to go on record saying that I don't think it inherently evil to do good together. I think I already explained my position quit well.

Humble - Do you think I have a point AT ALL, regarding the Christian emphasis on charity/good works possibly missing the mark the same as morality/conservatism? I FIRMLY believe folks can make the same mistake only with a different twist.

You might argue; "the bible is all about good deeds & kindness to all". Others could argue; "the bible is all about righteousness, morality & the impending judgment of the unredeemed".
You however had much to say previously, opposing those who insisted that both points of consideration need to be taken together.

Please understand that this is the only point I was trying to make all along. The example of banding together for a good work & making a staunch atheist feel a part of the Christian community because of it, seemed to me to be an excellent opportunity to prove my point. Please consider objectively!

Thanks!

[Kate]

"But Kate wanted the blog shut down. And Passion stated he was done "Casting Pearls to Swine."
So your REAL argument appears to be that it's OK to end dialogue with Jeff - but is Sinful to work with him to help others."

How does questioning the wisdom of such a blog automatically equate to wanting it shut down? I never said to Brad "Shut down that Blog!" Aren't you ever the perpetuator of thinking about things? I was simply trying to bring BIBLICAL perspective to the situation.

And, it's GOD who said “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." 17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." We can argue about these verses all day long, but in the end, they mean what they mean. God is saying that we have NOTHING in coming with unbelievers. Again, how can it get any simpler?

Of course, and I didn’t think I had to say it, but OF COURSE I am going to have interaction with nonbelievers. IT CAN’T BE HELPED. However, to PURPOSEFULLY band together with someone who is WILLINGLY and EMPHATICALLY against Jesus Christ is, well, I’m thinking that’s going AGAINST the Scriptures laid out above. Why don’t you take God seriously in this? It’s not rocket science. While it might not make sense to us that we have nothing in common with unbelievers (because after all, we supposedly care about feeding the poor, helping the sick, etc.), GOD KNOWS WHAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT. Also, there is a way that seemeth right to a man… yeah, you’ll find that in Proverbs… and it DOESN’T end with “it seemeth right to God also.”

My mind is just boggled over the fact that this is so difficult for people to understand that God MEANT what he said and SAID what he meant.

And Passionate, I want to apologize that you’re getting lumped in with me. Brad should not have gone after you about the school thing. You didn’t say it, I did. I stand by it and won’t apologize. Why would Christians give money to an organization that is against Christ?

Brad, while you're quick to say I've refused to meet with you, you CONSTANTLY avoid my biblical rebutts. I find that highly interesting.

It looks like people are having a difficult time RIGHTLY DIVIDING God’s word.

The issue is PUTTING ASIDE DIFFERENCES for what WE perceive to be the common good. This is the ecumenical push that Passionate was talking about. The Bible prophecied about this very thing thousands of years ago. And again, here is where I would argue—we should not serve WITHOUT sharing Christ. It does someone absolutely no good to be fed and then die without Christ. Of course, there are some who will be fed and reject Christ. Now, have I done charity work with nonbelievers? Sure. Am I always faithful to the Gospel and do I share Christ with everyone that I work with? I am SAD to say NO. But I would not band with the ACLU, for example, or any other group or individual for a food drive or other work who is KNOWN to be hostile to Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus warned about. He told us that as Christians we are called out--that we should be separate from the world.

I liken all this to President Bush saying “We all pray to the same God.” WRONG!

Call me nuts (thanks, Linda), but much of this is beginning to make sense in light of the end-times view Brad has. I’m sure the eyes are rolling now. Oh, well. Bring it on. God told me to contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints. He also said that there would be those who turn away from the truth and heap up for themselves teachers to tickle their itching ears. I’d say we’re knee deep in those things he warned us about.

Brad, I’ll be in touch about getting together.

[Linda]

Kate,
I don't think you're nuts - it was just an expression. Have you ever studied biblical watchmen? At first I was kind of upset about your, Jim's, and Passionate's postings - but later on I changed my thinking. Maybe you folks were trying to play roles of watchmen.

Anyway, I think its important for watchmen to understand spiritual authority. They are under the authority of pastors - not the other way around. Thus, sometimes I've been thinking that you could be biblically correct. But at the same time, I've been marveling that you don't recognize any of Pastor Brad's spiritual authority. So to me, it doesn't matter if you're right. If you're introducing disorder and destabilizing a pastor - then what you are doing is not of God.

That said, I do think that you could be a watchman. But I also believe that God sets the watchmen - it is He that determines one's spiritual jurisdiction. I really think you should consider whether you've been operating outside your spiritual jurisdiction. I also think you need to wait for God to give you assignments.

Be faithful in your assignmemnts - and God will promote you.

[Kate]

Linda:

Are you under the spiritual authority of the Pope? How about Jimmy Swaggart? Or John Hagee?

Pastor Brad is not my pastor. I am, first and foremost, under the spiritual authority of Jesus Christ and then under the authority of the pastor of the church which I attend.

If the pastor of the church I attend strays from scripture, I am no longer under his authority. My allegiance lies with Christ. That's why Jesus warned about the wolves who come into the church dressed in sheep's clothing. You do not have to remain under the spiritual authority of someone who does not promote Christ's FULL council and doctrine.

I cannot judge the motives of Pastor Brad and others at CR, but I can judge the message. And I do so because at times it does not line up exactly with scripture (but then again, a lot of what I'm arguing for is absolute truth in God's word, which some say does not exist).

I am a watchman, I guess. I take the call seriously to contend for the faith that was "once and for all delivered to the saints."

I have not done a study about watchmen, but I bet that would be an interesting study.