Wow,
Our peace agreement has set off quite a tempest in this teapot of ours. No wonder it's so hard to get people to come together when religion is involved. Suddenly we get a tiny glimpse into the complexities involved in Northern Ireland, the genocides in the Balkans, Israel vs Palestine and so many more of those conflicts that plague our earth like cancers.
In our little corner of the global confusion it seems to come down to the Literalists vs the Figuratives.
I'm trying to break this down to illustrate these opposing approaches to interpreting the Bible (see table below).
Brad, I have to say that both Passionate and Kate make a (sick) sense. They accept what the Bible says and don't judge it. You judge the Bible through the human lens. Atheists believe that your ability to judge the Bible is a kind of evidence pointing to the fallacy of God.
They don't twist the Bible through human interpretation to make it more of a palliative. They accept it at face value, mostly; even they resist when the Bible goes off the beam and exhorts humans to kill each other over the beliefs that separate them (at least I hope they do).
Can't you see this more clearly?
They accept the Bible for what it says as the very Word of God.
- They don't try to sand off all the rough parts. And, their beliefs lead them quite logically to the conclusions they shared on our blog.
- You've rejected these literal Biblical directives and instead have inserted human interpreters between you and your most holy book. You've said that humans (flawed as we are) are more correct than the clearest Biblical directive to the contrary.
Bradley, you got a lotta 'splaining to do!
| Belief | Literalists | Figuratives |
| Bible as word of God | The Bible IS the word of God. | The Bible was inspired by the word of God |
| Bible passage interpretation | There is no need for interpretation; the Bible is already plain and clear. | The Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally. Various humans over the course of history have spent ample time reviewing it and have determined that there are parts which offer literal doctrine and explicit instructions while most passages are figurative and suggestive of ways of being and acting. Plus, the books of the Bible were written for specific peoples with messages specifically for them and of their time |
| Rules of Thumb | When in doubt, do what the Bible says | When in doubt, defer to human interpretation |
| Doubt | Doubt comes from Satan | Doubt comes from God. (but why is it there when it comes to God's word?) |
| Passage Examples: 2 Corinthians 6 says, "14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." 17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." | This is clear, unambiguous and straight-forward. Brad is violating a direct command from the Bible by joining Jeff trying to improve the world. | This passage can't be taken literally. To understand the Bible you need human scholars. They say it was meant for a particular time and place and doesn't have literal credence in today's world. |
I'm not sure I completely understand your question.
*ABSOLUTELY general meaning can survive translation. In fact, significant meaning can survive translation.
And if I'm reading your question right - The Lord spoke on MANY topics that weren't directly associated with Love. BUT if God IS Love (whatever that means exactly) then anything that permeates from God is ALSO Love.
The interesting thing (somewhat off the topic) I can't find anywhere in Jesus' ministry where he tells people to READ scripture. He asks them for their translations "What does the Law say." He corrects their interpretation "You've heard it said...but I say." But I can't find him tell people "Go and STUDY the Scripture." He tells us that he is leaving us the Spirit. (Not the text.) He tells us that we can find him in others "What you do to these - you do to me." (Not the text.) We learn of the "Trinity - Father, Son, and Spirit (The Bible is Not God.)
I don't mean to minimize the Bible - I truly treasure it. BUT do we end up LIMITING God by confining him to Scripture? Do we place the Bible ABOVE God himself? When did Jesus tell us that "There will be a sacred book and it will contain ALL the truth of God. There IS no God outside of this book?"
If someone tells me "But you can ONLY learn the truth about God THROUGH the Bible" I'd say that this person is limiting God.
I'm not arguing that there is your view, Passion. I just started thinking about this.
Posted by: Humble Pie | October 30, 2007 at 11:06 AM
Humble -
Good stuff! To further your point, a rebuke Jesus gave the Pharisee's was; "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 ).
I wonder if the people Jesus resonated most with in His day were illiterate?
Thank God though for the biography's (gospels) of Christ, the writings of the apostles & prophets!
When our Spirit revelation transcends our earthly indoctrination & comprehends the holy writ, I think we're in good shape!
Posted by: passionate | October 30, 2007 at 12:00 PM
Hey guys,
I agree with what Passionate wrote about the Spirit.
I read the Bible all the way through when I was around 20 years old. So it is in my memory banks somewhere even though I don't recall immediately large chunks of the Bible.
I've found that when I need to know an answer to a particular situation that the Holy Spirit often directs my attention to a verse or story from scripture. The Holy Spirit causes me to remember something that I might have read 20 years ago.
So I do think the Holy Spirit is necessary to know which scripture is applicable for a given situation. To me, it just wouldn't make sense to try to apply scripture to myself or others without the Holy Spirit's guidance.
Posted by: Linda | October 30, 2007 at 12:27 PM
The wonder of Hebrew!!
This is the text basically as we know it:
"Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks." (Genesis 6:16 - RSV)
And this is the text when LITERALLY translated from Hebrew:
“A light you do to an ark and to a cubit you complete it from to over it and a door of the ark in its side you put unders twenty and thirty you do.”
Let me just say THANK YOU to the folks that spend incredible amounts of time making the Bible easier to understand!
This example came from a VERY cool website:
http://ancient-hebrew.org/index.html
Click on the Bible link on the left hand side - GREAT explanation.
And to Linda's point - without the Spirit we'd be in even worse shape then without the translators!!
Posted by: Humble Pie | October 30, 2007 at 12:54 PM
Humble:
"Do we place the Bible ABOVE God himself?"
Psalm 138:2 - (David speaking) I will worship toward thy holy temple and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
I will argue to my dying day that there are no contradictions in the Bible and that we can know the character and nature of God and his plan for our lives through his word.
And Jesus didn't have to "TELL us to read and study scripture"--he modeled the very behavior.
Fortunately, I don't think as highly of myself as you would portray in your post. I don't think I'm better than anyone--I just think that God said what he meant and meant what he said. And usually my interpretation of the scriptures errs to the side of "I'm really convicted about my behavior in light of what the Bible says." Not "well, we can't really know for sure what this scripture means, so I can behave any way I want. And then when judgment comes, I can just throw up my hands and claim I didn't know.
And my statement-- "Why, that would just be unloving—for him to make us try and figure out which is right in order to please him or make sure that we’re obeying him."--is perfectly logical.
"It may be a mistake to take any Scripture at face value." THAT is a scary statement, but sounds like what a lot of Christians are saying these days. After all, that's what's being taught at the seminaries.
Posted by: Kate | November 09, 2007 at 10:39 AM
By the way, Humble, that's the oldest trick in The Book - "Yea, hath God said?" Genesis 3
My "belief system" is the word of God, because that's all we've got. He had it written down so that it wouldn't get all screwed up like a big giant game of telephone.
It's just that now Satan is peddling the idea that God's word can't be trusted or that it can be interpreted 20 different ways. That's his trick! And based on your comments, it would seem you don't believe that God can preserve his word.
If I incorrectly interpret a scripture passage, BY ALL MEANS, please show me where I am in error. But I won't pay any attention if you can't back it up with scripture.
Posted by: Kate | November 09, 2007 at 10:57 AM