Brad: Let's rumble!

Sorry, Jeff, I thought you'd see why it would end after a discussion of Jesus. If Jesus ain't THE JESUS, then what's the point?

I believe the second half of this match has begun, folks! ;-)

Linda? What makes a good case?

Comments

[Humble Pie]

Wow guys - I swing over to Overstock to order a couple of books and when I get back you guys square off like a couple of Hockey Goons.

"You wanna go?"
"I will if you will?"
"Alright....let's go!"
"Drop em, baby"

Nice Work.

So if the gloves are off - let's give the crowd their money's worth!!

As a recap - Jeff asked for facts. Brad responded with evidence for Christ.

So Jeff - what do YOU believe to be true about Jesus? Did he exist? Was he a religious or political leader? Did he have a ministry? Was he crucified? (I'm assuming if you get this far...it's as far as you go. But what part of 'Jesus' do you want Brad to focus his evidence for?)

[Linda]

Pastor Brad,
You asked me about evidence. I'm not a litigator but I do know some fundamentals about evidence. First, it is necessary to determine WHO has the burden of proof? Burden of proof is closely related to legal presumptions.

Thus, in criminal law, the accused is presumed innocent, and thus, the prosecutor has the burden of proof. The acccused can but does not have to produce evidence of innocence. He can just sit in his chair and wait for the prosecutor's evidence of guilt. This evidence must be sufficient to prove facts which together constitute a crime. In civil law, the plaintiff has the burden of proof - not the defense.

Second, we determine what is the standard of proof. In criminal law, the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt." In civil law, the standard is "more probable than not." The standard in criminal law is the highest - like a greater than 90% probability that the accused is "guilty." The standard for civil law is about a 51% or greater probability that somebody is "liable." There is also an intermediate standard for a few other types of cases (like termination of parental rights) which is between the criminal standard and the civil standard.

So in criminal law, for example, the prosecutor must produce enough evidence to convince a jury that there is at least a 90% chance that the accused is guilty to convict. If the prosecutor only convinces the jury by a 51% probability - then the accused is found "not guilty." [Note: this is why OJ was found "not guilty" in the criminal trial but was found "liable" in the civil trial for the death of his wife and her friend. Its because the standards of proof are different.]

So in the present case, we need to determine presumption, burden of proof, and standard of proof. So basically, do we presume that God exists or not. This presumption would determine if Brad has to prove God exists or whether Jeff has to prove God does not exist.

Finally, I haven't mentioned "fact-finder" yet. Generally, the fact-finder is a neutral party - like a judge or jury. The fact-finder would weigh the evidence produced by Jeff and/or Brad and then decide whether the fact or facts have been proved using the appropriate standard of proof.

In our present discussion, we haven't had a neutral factfinder. We just had two gladiators and a bunch of spectators in an arena throwing things at each other. We never had anybody who was really neutral deciding whether Jeff or Brad was right about God.

[Linda]

Pastor Brad,
You also asked me what makes a good case. So what are you trying to prove anyway? Here are some possibilities:

1. Does God exist or not?
2. Was there a man named Jesus who started a sect know as Christianity and was later crucified and then resurrected?
3. Is Jeff a sinner in need of salvation only through the atoning blood of Jesus?
4. Is there life after death?
5. Is religion responsible for many atrocities committed through the ages?
6. Is religion holding back mankind from realizing his potential?
7. Would mankind be better off without God and/or religion?
8. Can a person be good without God?
9. Were the ancient Chinese philosphers right about the meaning of life?

I'm sure that you and Jeff can think of many other things to prove. So how there be a "case" if we don't even know what is being proved. Once we agree on what is being proved - then we'll be able to decide what evidence is needed.

[Linda]

Pastor Brad,
You also asked me what makes a good case. So what are you trying to prove anyway? Here are some possibilities:

1. Does God exist or not?
2. Was there a man named Jesus who started a sect know as Christianity and was later crucified and then resurrected?
3. Is Jeff a sinner in need of salvation only through the atoning blood of Jesus?
4. Is there life after death?
5. Is religion responsible for many atrocities committed through the ages?
6. Is religion holding back mankind from realizing his potential?
7. Would mankind be better off without God and/or religion?
8. Can a person be good without God?
9. Were the ancient Chinese philosphers right about the meaning of life?

I'm sure that you and Jeff can think of many other things to prove. So how there be a "case" if we don't even know what is being proved. Once we agree on what is being proved - then we'll be able to decide what evidence is needed.

[Linda]

Oops, can somebody fix my double post?

[Linda]

Pastor Brad,
Finally, why do you keep bringing up my training and profession - first meal group and now on the blog? I'm really just a stupid sheep when it comes to God. Baah! Anyway, I've been AWOL from my firm in favor of trimming shrubbery and painting rusty metal doors around church. I have to be in my Father's house!

[Account Deleted]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

-- Carl Sagan.

Brad, the burden of proof is on you.

[d.c.b.]

In regards to Sagan's study on UFOs, Sagan also said, "I believe the numbers work out in such a way that UFO's as interstellar vehicles is extremely unlikely, but I think it is an equally bad mistake to say that interstellar space flight is impossible."

Could this not be true about the existance of God as well?

[Fertil Aid Reviews]

Do your best shot guys! On the next match.. :D