In every good martial arts movie there is a scene where a warrior is surrounded by other fighters. It would appear at first glance the warrior is doomed. However, he is a wise warrior. He knows his opponents are fools, and so he simply allows there inability to work together to defeat themselves.
Jeff, to your wise judo-like maneuver, I tip my hat. The Christians you have been fighting have so bloodied themselves, we hardly look like our namesake. I am glad we have had this opportunity and I hope this serves only as a stepping stone to us deepening our friendship. You will always be a cherished friend and welcome in my home. I've been reading a book by Lee Strobel called The Case for the Real Jesus. 
As I read it I find it saying everything I want to say to you, and it says it better than I could. I am going to send you a copy as my final "two cents." I would be open to you giving me an idea of what I might read for your final "two cents."
Jim, Kate, Passionate, I submit to your greater wisdom. I have been wrong. Passionate, was right. My intentions were to usher in the great tribulation with Jeff. I was hoping by our helping disabled children to usher in the age of the Anti-Christ, but you have foiled my plans. Curses! However, I repent. You're right! My biblical interpretation is wrong. Yours is best. However, let's be clear. You are not literalists. You are letterists (Letterism defined: While often ignoring context, historical and cultural setting, and even
grammatical structure, letterism takes each word as an isolated truth.
A problem with this method is that it fails to take into account the
different literary genre, or types, in the Bible. Letterism tends to lead to legalism because of its
inability to distinguish between literary types. All passages tend to
become equally binding on current believers.) This will be my final missive to you as well for after I am done with this post I am going to pluck out my eye and cut off my hands for they all continue to aid and abet my sinning. Please pick me up and take me to the bunker where we can sit, and wait, and hate until Jesus comes again. While we're there, we can burn copies of Mark Noll's book The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind . 
(Note: for anyone interested I submit this article in reference to the nuance of biblical interpretation. In it you will find the most common principles used by biblical scholars all around the world. It's not brain surgery, but it's not idiocy either as some in this conversation have wanted to suggest.)
Jeff,
Hi, Pastor Brad is right that you outmaneuvered us. We just couldn't get it together and communicate to you the love of God. You got to see us in the fullness of our flawed humanity. Please forgive us. Still, I hope that you and Pastor Brad will continue your dialogue. He's really a good guy to talk to about "heart" things.
Posted by: Linda | October 24, 2007 at 09:56 AM
Brad - OOUCH & DOUBLE OUCH!
So much for disagreeing on a debate huh?
you're not going to give me anything for all my work of clarification & explanation either? ANOTHER OUCH!
Jeff -
let's get real dude. Do you think you gel perfectly with other atheists just because you have unbelief as your common denominator?
Posted by: passionate | October 24, 2007 at 10:06 AM
Passionate,
We weren't supposed to be the focus of this blog - Jeff was supposed to be the focus. I think we should have saved our theological disagreements for the Sanctuary blog. Also, Pastor Brad is our pastor. So I think we're supposed to recognize his spiritual authority. I don't think we did that too well.
Posted by: Linda | October 24, 2007 at 10:15 AM
Linda -
I'm sure you're correct & I do recognize Brad's authority.
I do however believe that I had relevant things to add to the discussion & feel they could have benefited Jeff.
If we want to talk about 'fighting fair', Brad's throwing low blows of sarcasm after he rang the bell of closure, in my opinion is less than gracious also. However, this is his playground & he gets to make the rules. I'm cool with that.
Posted by: passionate | October 24, 2007 at 11:38 AM
Passionate,
What do you mean about fighting fair? We're supposed to be on the same side. We're supposed to by brothers and sisters - but we're acting like adversaries. You guys keep talking about wanting to follow the Bible. What does the Bible say about Christians fighting amongst themselves?
Posted by: Linda | October 24, 2007 at 12:20 PM
Yes.
I'm done too.
But not for the same reasons as Brad.
I'm done because tonight we begin....
The WORLD SERIES!!!!!!
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...........
ROCKIEEEEESSSSSS...........
Posted by: Humble Pie | October 24, 2007 at 02:16 PM
Linda -
Why did I know that you'd mention my terminology?
You're right again, & I feel foolish for my opposition!
incidently, I would wish Brad to delete all my latest comments, but I can't undo what's been done.
Posted by: passionate | October 24, 2007 at 02:27 PM
Folks -
This latest exchange was designed to give you your hardest charitable assignment: to love and respect those who have disagreed with you! (I wish I could say it was my intention all along).
Much love from me & thank you for your time! Sincerely!
Passionate (& loose cannon at times)
Posted by: passionate | October 24, 2007 at 02:49 PM
Jeff thank you for the time you put in on this, I really enjoyed it. I would really like to help out on your's and Brad's next venture.
thanks again
Brian
Posted by: Brian | October 24, 2007 at 06:04 PM
OK - So the Rockies got BLOWN OUT by the Boston Cash Sox (I guess if they wanted to compete with the Yankees they HAD to spend 100 billion dollars on their team. Ah yes, the reality of American sports. $$$$$$$$)
So. Since this appears to be our "swan song" ... let me swan....
Brad. When I die, if I open my eyes and see people trying to persuade me to go in their direction. And you are one of those people. I will gladly go in your direction. And if you ARE wrong...I'll be proud to be wrong with you!
Passion. You sometimes drive me crazy (and I would SERIOUSLY resist calling folks like pastor Brad the AntiChrist - either directly or indirectly) but I do love you brother. And we do have much to learn from each other.
Linda. I can only hope that the 'silliness' and sometimes downright 'mean spiritedness' of us Christians doesn't outweigh the absolute and wonderful powerful truth of God's Spirit that has sprung in you. Religion and Theology are man's futile attempt at understanding the amazing reality of God. Ultimately - we're all wrong....and only God is right. I have no doubt in my mind that you will be an amazing woman of Faith.
Jim and Kate. Repeat this phrase 1000 times "Humble doesn't know everything and he isn't always right." And then repeat the phrase 10 times as follows "I don't know everything and I'm not always right." There's an amazing liberation of ones soul when we realize that we are mere humans and can NEVER know all the truths of the one true God.
Jeff. So yes, you did win this round - simply by pitting your adversaries against themselves. But if there is ONE HOPE I have for your understanding of Christianity is that it is ABSOLUTELY NOT defined by your preconceived perceptions.
So here's the deal - hop on a Sun Country flight to MSP - should cost you around $200. I'll take you and Brad to Minnesota's finest Jazz Club (the Dakota) and we can have a real discussion on this whole religion topic (not at the club of course - I give the ugly staredown for folks chatting while fine musicians are doing their thing.) Brad and I certainly don't agree on everything - but hopefully you'll see that there's more to Christianity then what folks like Pat Robertson say.
Peace out brothers and sisters.
Posted by: Humble Pie | October 24, 2007 at 08:37 PM
Wow. I hope this "3rd angle" insight can possibly help... The downward spiral does not occur with the debate itself, and it does not even occur with the "rules of engagement", it occurs with a set of very significant pretexts.
The most significant pretextual defect is the assumption that all truth is derived at through MERELY an intellectual pursuit of facts and propositions. In the Psalms David's criticism of the "folks" who determine there "is no God" do it with their "heart". The human being is much more than just a brain that just so happens to be shooting elctricity around.
I'm not saying that a Christian dismisses his/her brain and enters into a land of intellectual pathology, (there are "nuclear powered brains" I have heard defend the validity of the scriptural account of Jesus of Nazereth=God proposition) but the Bible tells us up front that this debate is a non-sequitir. 1 Cor. 1:18 - 2:16 simply says that these things are "spiritualy discerned" and that an Atheist OF FRIGGING COURSE is going to think all of this is foolishness. Because IT IS. So, Jeff, you are correct, your method should conclude EXACTLY what you conclude. Christopher Hitchens and Ayn Rand are brilliant. And you conclude these things with some great intellectual gravitas. YOU ARE RIGHT.
Brad, you and I (scripturally speaking) have come to our ultimate faith through The Spirit and through the PURSUIT OF FOOLISHNESS. I have seen and experienced some very LITERAL proofs that this "foolishness" is a "deeper magic" (sorry CS...) personally, first hand, through the real and very literal human senses, yes, but a purely intellectual pursuit to "prove Christ" is going to be a losing proposition. I'm fine with that. We are fools. Our faith is irrational. Jeff, you are a super cool guy, you can't blame us fools for wishing you could experience what we have and do experience/d. Its a bit like coming into a warm fire-placed room from from a cold raw day, you don't need to understand it, the heat and wonder of the flames are real, and you experience it.
With God as my witness, even if you could thoroughly convince my head that a. there is no God, and b. Christ is not The Son Of God, every fiber of my being would just believe anyway, yeah, its foolishness. Not from a point of weakness or self-delusion, but from the very nature of who I am, saturated with knowing the very real presence of The Holy Spirit, it can't be hidden, and I can't lie to myself. So, here I am, I just... believe.
Posted by: VICIT | October 24, 2007 at 09:48 PM
Pastor Brad,
I know that we self-destructed on your blog with Jeff. So are we still going to have the sanctuary blog? For some reason, the sanctuary blog hasn't been as controversial as this blog with Jeff. I'm not sure why.
Posted by: Linda | October 24, 2007 at 10:32 PM
Ahhh Linda, you obviously weren't around for the start of the Sanctuary Blog.
Posted by: d.c.b. | October 25, 2007 at 06:43 AM
Folks
There is a massive misconception that I want to clear up.
I came to my atheism from my heart, not my head. I talk about my conversion at the end of this early post. It was not an intellectual exercise, it was a visceral epiphany, a religious experience one might say...! The intellectual stuff came later. First I was surprised by the joy of this insight, then I found the intellectual support for it and the deeper I probed the more I discovered the complete fallacy of religious belief.
In addition to the referenced post, you can find that even now I don't believe in only what the mind can perceive. See my argument and notice the attention to the metaphysical. Most of existence will probably remain hidden from our perception; but that fact doesn't naturally lead to a God hypothesis.
What fascinates me most about the latest turn of this blog experiment is that for us Humanists, works are of utmost importance; yet for Christians they are either icing on the cake of Christ or patently evil since they distract one from the true relationship with God. You remind me of the anarchists I met while traveling in Europe who believed it was wrong to fix social injustices because that only delayed the global bloody revolution. Some of you seem to be arguing for the same thing, only worse: don't band together with unbelievers because the sooner the rapture comes, the sooner we will be with God. How that separates you from those insane young men strapping explosives to their chests in hopes of striking a blow for Allah and receiving their 100 virgins in the afterlife is beyond me: they are exactly the same.
That anyone could equate Brad and I joining together to improve the world with the metaphor of Satan is so clearly an act of self-delusion that it alone should give you all serious pause and cause you to at least reconsider your belief in the Bible as the true word of God. That it doesn't is more evidence that Dawkins is at least correct in his thesis (if not, his proofs) and that Marx found the best metaphor for religion long ago and its true now more than ever.
Posted by: Account Deleted | October 25, 2007 at 09:40 AM
Okay Jeff - you have a right to your opinion & I thank you for joining us on this "experiment"
But PLEASE, could you (or someone here) tell me what it is about my clarification that you don't understand. I've said it now 3 differnt times & 3 differnt ways.
Here it is one more time:
The example of banding together for a good work & making a staunch atheist feel a part of the Christian community because of it, seemed to me to be an excellent opportunity to prove my point. My point once again being; good works doesn't justify a person before God!
Now, this is what I meant. I agree that approaching it with at the anti-christ angle was foolish, so I recant. I appologized to Brad in person & I apologize to you. No bombs, no more misunderstanding. Peace, love, joy to you & your's. Seriously!
Now where's your argument?
Posted by: passionate | October 25, 2007 at 10:11 AM
Here's where your argument was out of line Passionate:
"My point once again being; good works doesn't justify a person before God!"
Brad never argued that it did. And Jeff doesn't believe in God. So it's absurd to accuse EITHER person of trying to be justified through good works.
They are simply two people that wanted to do something to help someone else.
VICIT - WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!!! I sure would have appreciated your insight a long time ago!
Posted by: Humble Pie | October 25, 2007 at 04:35 PM
Jeff:
If you cannot tell the difference between: 1. People who intentionally target innocent people for mass murder by strapping bombs to themselves vs: 2. People who less-than-enthusiastically join a cause, then on the face of it you are less than rational. I'm trying to respect you, but I'm at a loss as to how to respect the mind that draws that comparison...the kindest I word I can say is "absurd". But I understand the demonization of Christians based on the myths and lies of history, it occurs all the time, and its okay, I'm used to it.
If you want to play the "body bag count" game, in this modern century (which is the most relevant, its OUR century) the VAST, VAST, majority of human oppression, suffering and genocide has been done by secular, Marxist inspired, atheist, and socialist/communist regimes to the tune of a number approaching 110 million. This is simply a function of the provable historical record: Stalin gets credit for about 20 million dead, 20 million dissapeared, Communist regimes knocked off 11 million in the Cambodian killing fields (thanks Jane... wow, some "peace movement"), and thats just a start. Hitler was distinctively NOT Christian, although he did dupe a major portion of the German Church heirarchy into supporting him, among our "strain" (Brad,and my...)of Christendom the majority were protectors of Jews. Oh, but wait a second, Christians in 1034 had an ugly reaction to 400 years of being murdered and plundered (20,000 dead) and a few wack jobs bombed a couple of abortion clinics... and some morons in Alabama said the word "fag". I guess we're all the same.
I found it fascinating how you describe your "epiphany" as being so wholistic, and almost spiritual. Thats a new twist I was not attuned to. Its seriously fascinating, not in a condescending or purjorative way... actually very cool... I personally believe in good works beng the thing that proves someone has faith (scripture references ad-nauseum) how the *expletive* else would could someone tell you had faith if you didn't?! I would never be among those who would refuse any feasible opportunity to reduce the suffering of the human condition and to fight the various effects that evil/sin/Satan/whatever has wrought on this planet based on some technicality. So, count me in, NO: I won't turn my back on the Gospel or stop the fellowship of believers just because I join... relax...
Posted by: VICIT | October 25, 2007 at 07:48 PM
VICIT - I did my swan song and you're gonna make me come back for an encore!!
Actually though, I want to respond to Jeff's Epiphany. I too had an epiphany of sorts - and believe it or not it was similar to the one that you describe. And believe it or not again - it was brought about By Dr. Greg Boyd [relax folks - this was in a college classroom NOT in Church. In College we are SUPPOSED to challenge and question our beliefs!]
What I discovered in this amazing class - is that I HAD been brainwashed as a child. My entire world view was based on things that I had learned as a child and been told that I should NEVER question. By midterm I was convinced that everything was just plain false. (Maybe similar to where you've been at for a while?)
But then what we did was reconstruct our worldview (And believe it or not - this was Pre Author Greg Boyd when he didn't tell us what to believe - only that when we rebuild our beliefs they will be much stronger.) It was at this point in time that I reexamined what the Bible REALLY says - what Jesus REALLY says - what the Spirit is REALLY telling me. This process has continued for me for almost 20 years. And while this gets me in hot water from time to time with more fundamental Christians....I wouldn't trade my Spiritual life for ANYTHING. To VICIT'S point - when you experience the Spirit (and no - I've never spoken in tongues or prophesized or healed anybody...not that there's anything wrong with that...just nothing I've experienced) it truly becomes that extra 'sense.' I don't fear ANYTHING that science can PROOVE to me - in fact I relish science and learning. Because there truly isn't anything that can separate me from that Spirit sense.
Sorry - I rambled. (I'm just glad we're not talking about armageddon!)
Posted by: Humble Pie | October 25, 2007 at 08:54 PM
Humble Pie -
I sincerely appreciate your graciousness by answering me. I feel very embarrassed regarding some of my angles in this last exchange, and really for commenting at all. In case you haven't noticed, I've been trying to dig myself out of a hole ever since.
I also appreciate the "love" comment & the feeling is mutual. I drive everyone crazy, including myself. I assure you, my wife & kids (my congregation) resent my 'preaching' more than y'all. Pray for them!
Trying to articulate the Gospel to people is both what angers me & fulfills me the most (my chawzone?).
I appreciate everyone's patience, understanding & forgiveness.
Perhaps humility, repentance & mercy is something that an outsider needs to see most?
Posted by: passionate | October 26, 2007 at 07:49 AM
Well, yeah, reading Jeffs ideas has been awesome! I've learned an amazing amount. Seriously fascinating... I don't see how it can hurt me to learn things or get a little visit into another human beings mind, I mean heck, God loves these creatures!
I LOVE THIS PARADIGM (not my invention... a guy I've been taught by and read his books... knows 5 languages fluently, with a Doctorate from Columbia in modern dictatorial regimes...)
**when we enter debate, CLARITY trumps AGREEMENT**
Its OKAY if Jeff thinks Christianity is for delusional fools, and its OKAY that I think that Jeff operates from a purposely crafted mythology of historical and scientific truth. We don't have to agree, I've seen The Holy Spirit make a guy just like Jeff fall madly in love with Jesus of Nazareth and have a huge conversion of faith. Not our job to harrass him into The Kingdom. At this point I'm a little worried that we see Jeff as this problem to be solved rather than a guy who God loves dearly, and vise-versa, he seems to see us as these un-evolved archaics who need to see the true freeing light that there is no God.
As far as The Holy Spirit, theres a multitude of activity The Holy Spirit is involved in, we tend to kind of only focus on the weird stuff like speaking in tongues and healing. I personally HAVE EXPERIENCED miraculous healing, I've experienced demonic entities snap to obedience at the name of Jesus, and I have close friends (not Pentecostals) who have spoken in other languages they haven't naturally learned. To me the most powerful things I've seen The Holy Spirit do is actually change the human heart, create oneness of believers even among ones who BITTERLY disagree politically, racially and philosophically, and I've personally seen spiritual gifts exercised that absolutely astonish me coming from people who are absolutely NOT talented naturally at that given gift. And however subjective this is, I feel/know the presence of God through the Holy Spirit so surely and strongly sometimes I'd have to be a complete liar to deny it.
Posted by: VICIT | October 26, 2007 at 08:07 AM
I have to admit that I am saddened by the way this has played out. Having recently found Christ, recently meaning within the past 7 years, I am once again wondering why, as Christians we can't get it together. Christians and atheist are like republicans and democrats where the democrats are the christians; so much in fighting that we can't even decide where to stand.
I remember when I was seeking Christ, the one thing that would irritate me the most about believers, was the use of the Bible to prove itsself. It is akin to using the color blue to prove that blue is blue--completely circular. Above that I have to say that I am most surprised about the way Brad handled all of this. (Sorry man, I still think you are the goods, though.) I never knew that you had this side to you. It seems as if you have just kind of given up.
It also seems that the whole blog was sort of usurped by a couple of others who weren't directly involved. The whole debate was mired down by too many dissenting opinions and as Brad put it, letterists.
Jeff-- I hope that one day someone will be able to put together a cogent, fact based defense for you to consider. You seem to me to be one who considers issues based on their merits and not visceral anecdotes. I know that facts are there to support God's existence
Posted by: jazmsngr | October 26, 2007 at 11:24 AM
So, jazmsngr, thats what you gathered from all of this? I thought this was a wonderful learning experience. I thought there were some really compelling merit based things said in here...
Its a bit dehumanizing to label and castigate your brothers and sisters in Christ as "letterists", they are human beings, not the enemy/then you are upset with Christians for being divided!?!? gee, I wonder why? They have specific reasons they ARE; like the EXACT words of Christ, who you say you believe in (I could cite verse and chapter but from what you said don't think the Bible "proves" anything). So, you "found" Christ but aren't interesetd in what he has to say??...? The BIG PROBLEM YOU FACE IN CRITICIZING THE BIBLE IS... UH, THATS WHERE YOU FIND THE WORDS OF THIS CHRIST YOU SAY YOU "FOUND".
You managed to vaunt yourself above this whole thing and take a "shot" at everyone in this discussion... sorry now even I'm depressed... then criticize the lack of issues with "merits" and then say you "know the facts" are there, but don't share them with us? huh? I must be missing something, I thought the discussions were great, a bit tedious in parts I will agree, but I found it fascinating.
You have kind of cemented yourself into a corner of ignorance when you follow a religious figure but reject the texts and teachers who could teach you about it.
The reality is: You can't prove God in some sort of laboratory "hard-science" experiment. Basically one guy wakes up and knows there is a God, and the other guy wakes up and doesn't. O.k. PLEASE READ 1 CORINTHIANS 1:18-2:16, I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK OR WHAT IT SAYS, I'M NOT IN THE MOOD TO BE LABELED AND CHEAP SHOTTED JUST FRIGGING READ IT! FOLLOWING CHRIST INVOLVES SOME LEVEL OF IRRATIONAL AND FOOLISH FAITH, AND I KNOW PEOPLE WITH I.Q.'S FROM 30 TO 230 WHO UNDERSTAND THAT.
Posted by: VICIT | October 26, 2007 at 05:46 PM
Vicit,
I didn't have a problem with jazmsngr's comments - I thought they were right. This debate was supposed to be between Jeff and Pastor Brad - an atheist versus a Christian pastor. So I thought we were supposed to be supporting Pastor Brad in his trying to convince Jeff of the truth of Christianity. But we could never get it together and behave as if we were on the same team. Instead, we started fighting amongst ourselves - and Jeff (the smart guy that he is) exploited our divisions. So we basically self-destructed and were exposed in our flawed humanity - its a wonder that God uses us as his hands and feet.
Personally, I didn't have a problem with the view of some of the bloggers. I was seriously considering these views - such as whether it would be wise for a Christian to start an organization to help disabled children with a non-Christian. It did seem that this kind of cooperation could be problematic.
But I did think that Pastor Brad has spiritual authority over us and that we should have been taking his lead - he does have greater accountability to God and man than us. So I did think that we basically failed to recognize his spiritual authority.
That said, I also think this discussion format pretty much invites people to engage in a free-for-all. Personally, I think Jeff knew this from the beginning - and this is why he suggested that everybody be able to post at will. He knew that we would be disorganized and start to attack each other. Jeff knows the ancient Chinese philosphers, including the art of war. The Chinese philosophers have known for ages that the surest way to defeat an enemy is to stir up dissension in the enemy ranks.
So if Pastor Brad were blogging against a bunch of atheists - the same thing would have happened to the atheists. They would have startedarguing amongst themselves and Pastor Brad would have made them out as fools.
Posted by: Linda | October 27, 2007 at 12:32 PM
I was actually defending Brad, and yeah, I even agree with some of jzmsngr's asessments. I held back the tone though soas not to continue the harshness level
I SOMPLY OBJECTED TO THE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE AND POMPOUS ATTITUDE:
1. Ripping Christians for a. being so divided, then pursuing b. a "label and smear" other Christians move. CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW THAT DISSONANT?
2. Claiming to have a. "found Christ" then saying that b. The Bible -WHERE YOU FIND CHRISTS WORDS- proves nothing. CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW THIS IS ALSO DISSONANT?
3. The whole tone was to just criticize EVERYONE a to z, and then write it as some fully-removed third party who could of course, NEVER be like the rest of us.
Pastor Brad does not have spiritual authority over some of those who posted, I don't think some of them are under his teaching. That "authority thing" doesn't mean we should expect him to NEVER have human emotons like anger or frustration. I personally know his frustration is from the fact that he loves Jeff and if you love someone obviously you hate to see them believe lies that you are convinced endanger their souls. Be careful with the "authority" talk, we aren't a Roman Catholic Church and since Pastors are also payed pretty well to do what they do, they do this on a vocational level as well and some monstrous ego trips can be fomented if you aren't careful. The "authority" is with the word of God, and Christ, ans as much as a Pastor is within that "umbrella" they are an "authority", it does not come just because they draw a paycheck.
I differ sharply with you and jzmsngr though that this bit of a free-for-all needs to be thought of as a war to be won. I thought it was great that all these ideas are on the table, and lets be honest, the debate itself is entirely seperated from the comments if you'd prefer only to read the debate you could, at least on my screen they were seperate.
I'd be EXTREMELY disappointed if everyone just threw up their arms (sick of the conflict) and made this blog a generic, whitewashed, feel good place where only un-controversial topics are broght up, it'd -for me at least- be a huge loss for me. I loved the exchange.
Posted by: VICIT | October 27, 2007 at 02:38 PM
Vicit,
I'm wondering if you're under Pastor Brad's spiritual authority or not? I wasn't sure if you go to Crossroads or another local church. Also, I think the Kingdom of God is a "kingdom" and not a "republic."
Further, I don't think the war is between Pastor Brad and Jeff. I think the war is between God and Satan. If there were no war, then why does the Bible say that Christ Jesus defeated Satan with His death and resurrection? Also, why would the Bible say we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities - if there were no war?
I'm not sure what you mean by your reminding me that we're not a Roman Catholic church and that Pastor Brad draws a paycheck. What does this have to do with spiritual authority?
Personally, I believe that spiritual authority comes only from God - because we're living in His kingdom. God gives us our assignments and the spiritual authority to carry them out. Before Jesus sent out his disciples to preach (in His name) He gave them authority to cast out unclean spirits, to heal the sick, etc. Thus, they could do nothing without this authority.
So I do think pastors have spiritual authority over their sheep - if the pastor is placed there by God. But of course its possible for a pastor to be a counterfeit - meaning he is not placed by the will of God. I personally believe that Pastor Brad has been placed by God. If I didn't believe this - I wouldn't go to Crossroads.
That said, I do believe that some spiritual ministries can be lacking in churches. Some of us are praying regularly that God would raise up people gifted in these other spiritual ministries.
Posted by: Linda | October 27, 2007 at 07:59 PM